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Author Topic: Community Meeting Saturday January 28th for PE at 9pm GMT  (Read 1147 times)
robieman9
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« on: January 18, 2017, 10:11:53 pm »

There will be a small community meeting in regards to our Panzer Elite changes. The idea of this meeting is to consider community ideas on the faction and the direction the community wants to see the faction move in. This meeting will not be about balance. This meeting will not be about the mod in general. This meeting is purely on Panzer Elite and the fact that we are going to be changing fundamental aspects of their design.

If you have any good ideas or want to be a part of the discussion on other people's ideas I encourage you to come. If you do not care for these design aspects of the mod I encourage you to stay away.

Feel free to post any ideas you may have within this thread. If you cannot make the meeting but wish to have an idea or thought represented within the meeting please make a post or PM me.
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« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2017, 10:14:49 pm »

Neat, hope I can be there.
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OttoVonSaxony
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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2017, 11:10:12 pm »

I hold you responsible Robie if I'm around and miss this meeting :p.
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holoween
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2017, 02:46:44 am »

to get everyone an idea what has internally been talked about and to maybe give some inspiration for ideas

currently standing idea is to increase pgreen pop by 1 bringing them in line with other mainline inf again and then making an upgrade for the light vehicles that changes their armour class to make them less vulnerable to infantry fire (depending on its strength increasing pop and price along the way) to allow the faction to be carried more by its vehicles
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2017, 01:15:18 pm »

to get everyone an idea what has internally been talked about and to maybe give some inspiration for ideas

currently standing idea is to increase pgreen pop by 1 bringing them in line with other mainline inf again and then making an upgrade for the light vehicles that changes their armour class to make them less vulnerable to infantry fire (depending on its strength increasing pop and price along the way) to allow the faction to be carried more by its vehicles

You really shouldnt spoil the surprise, people prefer to hear bad news all at once :)
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Saavedra
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2017, 03:14:10 pm »

If this meeting is what I think it is, I definitely will try to spectate it.
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holoween
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2017, 03:19:30 pm »

to get everyone an idea what has internally been talked about and to maybe give some inspiration for ideas

currently standing idea is to increase pgreen pop by 1 bringing them in line with other mainline inf again and then making an upgrade for the light vehicles that changes their armour class to make them less vulnerable to infantry fire (depending on its strength increasing pop and price along the way) to allow the faction to be carried more by its vehicles

You really shouldnt spoil the surprise, people prefer to hear bad news all at once :)

the idea is that others will post their ideas here so we can get an idea what everyone thinks and maybe get good ideas.
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Saavedra
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2017, 05:01:53 pm »

the idea is that others will post their ideas here so we can get an idea what everyone thinks and maybe get good ideas.

It is very obvious that you guys want to put an end to PE blobbing, but going by whatīs been said, it is almost like you guys want to ignore why people blob in the first place. Yes, their vehicles taking damage from small arms like Garands and machineguns is a problem, but since you donīt want to talk about "the mod in general", this leads me to think you want to ignore the elephants in the room, like quadzookas, over-repairs and similar stuff that wonīt be fixed by deleting vehicle vulnerability to small arms (and having to pay a premium for that as well).


You want ideas to make people stop blobbing? Well, you can either make PE better at what they currently are, or you can make them like the other factions. Personally, I prefer the former, so I suggest this:

1- Buff vehicles. A number of them cost too many resources, too much pop, or both just because of the "muh mobility" meme. More mobility can justify higher fuel cost, but not additional pop cost on top of that. You make vehicles cheaper, you make them easier to support, and people will try to use them instead of just blobbing.

2- Give PE players better suppression platforms. The Scout Car just doesnīt cut it in its current iteration. Either make the Scout Car suppress while on the move, or give upgrades to other units to compensate. HE rounds for Marders that suppress, LMGs with suppression for Pgrens, etc...

3- Enhance PE infantry survivability outside of a blob. For example, with doctrine-oriented "camo smocks" like the ones Storm Troopers have. Something unique to Tank Hunters, to Scorched Earth and to Luftwaffe, either giving them new abilities or upgrading what they already have. Upgraded armour/health, lower cooldowns and better bonuses for sprinting, and something that makes Luftwaffe grens better at defending emplacements would be my main choices for this. This enhances flavor, makes troops more expensive but at the same time more effective, and gives a new meaning to Panzer Elite by giving them a kind of "elite infantry lite" thing.

4- Nerf stuff in other factions. Quadzookas are terrible because they one-shot or cripple even vehicles like the PIV IST, which is the main line-breaker PE have. Over-repairs causes PE vehicles to lose slug matches against Allies regardless of the PE playerīs ability to micro his stuff against Allied stuff. And so on.

5- Buff doctrinal units. The Nashorn is too high pop, the Stupa is laughable compared to the Churchill AVRE (150 damage versus 500, on a Panzer IV chassis, and it costs 1 more pop...), and so on.



All of these together, or some taken and some not, would do wonders to stop people blobbing. But if you ask me, 1 and 2 are the ones most desperately needed to stop that crap. 3 would be interesting but as a tier 3 doctrines kind of thing, maybe. 4 should be done regardless of whatever you do with PE. 5 would be nice too, because I mostly donīt see a point in using many doctrinal units when the basics of PE can work better (redundancy is great).
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 05:08:46 pm »

Ye I've always strongly felt their standard pop should be +1.

PG's always were in the advantage vs the M1 garand (which has a bigger dmg penalty (0.6) opposed to (0.75) vs soldiers). And their Kar98k's have this weird 1.15x accuracy bonus vs standard infantry. So you always feel the discrepancy between their awesomeness vs rifleman opposed to their disadvantages vs Rangers/Airborne/British.

Scorched earth granting a flamethrower upgrade in some form would be great to at least deal with the elite armor (rangers). Which are so hard to deal with. Rangers counter both PG's and Light vehicles really well.


One more question on the coding side: how do you easily implement such an upgrade, so it only affects the small arms fire?
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2017, 05:21:19 pm »

the idea is that others will post their ideas here so we can get an idea what everyone thinks and maybe get good ideas.



1- Buff vehicles.

2- Give PE players better suppression platforms.

3- Enhance PE infantry survivability outside of a blob. For example, with doctrine-oriented "camo smocks" like the ones Storm Troopers have. Something unique to Tank Hunters, to Scorched Earth and to Luftwaffe, either giving them new abilities or upgrading what they already have. Upgraded armour/health, lower cooldowns and better bonuses for sprinting, and something that makes Luftwaffe grens better at defending emplacements would be my main choices for this. This enhances flavor, makes troops more expensive but at the same time more effective, and gives a new meaning to Panzer Elite by giving them a kind of "elite infantry lite" thing.

4- Nerf stuff in other factions. Quadzookas are terrible because they one-shot or cripple even vehicles like the PIV IST, which is the main line-breaker PE have. Over-repairs causes PE vehicles to lose slug matches against Allies regardless of the PE playerīs ability to micro his stuff against Allied stuff. And so on.

5- Buff doctrinal units. The Nashorn is too high pop, the Stupa is laughable compared to the Churchill AVRE (150 damage versus 500, on a Panzer IV chassis, and it costs 1 more pop...), and so on.



All of these together, or some taken and some not, would do wonders to stop people blobbing. But if you ask me, 1 and 2 are the ones most desperately needed to stop that crap. 3 would be interesting but as a tier 3 doctrines kind of thing, maybe. 4 should be done regardless of whatever you do with PE. 5 would be nice too, because I mostly donīt see a point in using many doctrinal units when the basics of PE can work better (redundancy is great).

1) Yup the halftracks at least

2) LMG on luft is broken btw plz fix. Moving suppression on scoutcars? That sounds a bit broken doesn't it? There literally won't be counterplay to a kiting scoutcar.

3) No.. unless maybe for the gebirtsjaeger. (or w/e their name is) I don't see the point in making the infantry the jack of all trades (even more.) The situation would be WORSE than Rangers and AB are. And blobbing would only increase.

4) Hmm subjective fanboyism, you should really point out the OP stuff here. Because are field repairs really OP. Or are you just annoyed that they exist.

5) Ye like why does the Jagdpanther costs so goddamn much.
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2017, 05:51:11 pm »

Maybe just change the scout-car upgrade to a Muni cost, like every other ability in the game. That and IMO the P4 IST is simply an awful unit, the range is so low. Literally it's outranged by Bazookas.
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Saavedra
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« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2017, 11:15:49 am »

2) LMG on luft is broken btw plz fix. Moving suppression on scoutcars? That sounds a bit broken doesn't it? There literally won't be counterplay to a kiting scoutcar.

3) No.. unless maybe for the gebirtsjaeger. (or w/e their name is) I don't see the point in making the infantry the jack of all trades (even more.) The situation would be WORSE than Rangers and AB are. And blobbing would only increase.

4) Hmm subjective fanboyism, you should really point out the OP stuff here. Because are field repairs really OP. Or are you just annoyed that they exist.

5) Ye like why does the Jagdpanther costs so goddamn much.

2- The Scout Car would obviously have a lower suppression value if made mobile. It would have to stay in the fight and keep firing, but at least it wouldnīt be standing still like an idiot so it can get zomg pwned by Rangers.

3- If blobbing increased, it would be a very short-lived thing since Iīm talking 300mp Pgrens or something even more expensive, so a single MG can screw them up. And if it becomes worse than Airborne/Ranger blobs? Then I honestly donīt care. At least PE were always meant to be the blobbing faction even back in vCoH, so American players that abuse elite infantry blobs can get shoved back into their place and love it. At least Iīm not asking for four schrecks on six-man Pgren units with the health and armour of Rangers, or Hotchkiss upguns on Pgrens.

4- http://www.omgmod.org/index.php?topic=12708.15

http://www.omgmod.org/index.php?topic=6956.0


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That and IMO the P4 IST is simply an awful unit, the range is so low. Literally it's outranged by Bazookas.

The PIV IST is "good". It is the only line-breaker unit PE have: you rush it into the enemy, circle around ATGs even if you take one or two shots from them, kill MGs/riflemen blobs with it, and use the infantry you should be rushing behind it to kill the ATGs.

The problem is infantry AT. Not the range, because PIV ISTs are just not to be used defensively. The problem is those weapons just donīt care about the sideskirts. RRs go through easily, bazookas will still rape it, and PIATs ignore sideskirts and hit rear armour on top of that. A single unit with those weapons can be dealt with, but not the hordes we are seeing regularly. The PIV IST desperately needs to go down in pop and resources cost. It should not cost more than 9pop, preferably 8, and its MG and sideskirts costs should go down to account for the short range of the weapon. Yes, even more. I know it already has a lower cost because it is not the Wehr PIV, but the Wehr PIV can kite whereas the IST just canīt.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 11:25:58 am by Saavedra » Logged

OttoVonSaxony
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« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2017, 05:26:43 pm »

I'd like to point out mobile Suppression does exist in the form of the Brent Gun Carrier and if that was copied to PE I don't think it would be a problem.

For those who haven't used it, while moving it's suppression seems to be near zero and it is 2 Pakistan shots to kill so not particularly insane at kiting.
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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2017, 12:23:01 am »

Wut time would this meeting be in Australia, I can't do math
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« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 01:06:23 am »

I'd like to point out mobile Suppression does exist in the form of the Brent Gun Carrier and if that was copied to PE I don't think it would be a problem.

For those who haven't used it, while moving it's suppression seems to be near zero and it is 2 Pakistan shots to kill so not particularly insane at kiting.

I'd like to point out bren gun carriers arent meant to be your mainline form of suppression, i'd also like to point out PE doesnt have a crewed machine gun to fall back on when the meta inevitably turns into nothing but HHAT to counter a thing like this.
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